If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Then get ready for a gunfight. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. Love it. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. Come On People!! for all the same reasons. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun! Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! Where aim for the middle of the whole body. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy Wellcome L0024127.jpg 1,080 1,787; 799 KB. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! Different bullets and guns have different patterns. Hogwash!! Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. To each their own. It definitely doesnt mean the ability to kill the target. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. F=MA is F=MA. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. Makes no difference to me. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. Wouldnt waste my money on it. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Model. Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. So banter on gentlemen. As mentioned in the article, the terminal ballistics of the modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round but that is with modern 9mm JHP ammo. And the department is no small one. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. I imagine humans are the same. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. Officer Needs Help!!! If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. Of course, smoothly drawing a handgun leads directly to another subject: which holster is best for those concerned with personal protection? In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. Its a High Point .40S&W. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. So many guns so little time! I never miss. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. There ya go compromise just carry both. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Lexipol. And I can certainly understand WHY you would be led to thinking that switching to the Glock 21 would improve your chances of getting a stop. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. It doesnt get more damaging that that. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. Shorter barrels or longer range of initial impact will likewise decrease the possibility of expansion. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. Opinions all ! All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. That use the same ammo is the way for me. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. Thats why were here right? 9mm beats .45acp. As Sir Isaac Newton pointed out a few centuries ago, for every action theres an equal reaction in the opposite direction. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. Now, I read the officers story. Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. First off when you call a magazine a CLIP, everything you say is null and void as far as Im concerned. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. A pistol just sucks in that situation. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. Thanks. So In a effort to But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. You are up close and personal with this guy. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. For those not in the military, go for what you want. I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. I like them all! Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. Its why neck-down cartridges for .223 are even used. Really lets cut to the chase. If you can fire without remorse. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. round, you can see all three effects. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. I love it. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. So in other words, Science is also getting a kick back just so the 9mm gets so called, scientific proof! The .22, meanwhile. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. A majority of FBI shooters are both faster and more accurate using 9mm Luger versus .40 S&W rounds. But only weighed 140 lbs then. The FEE reports that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, which means youre more likely to use a gun in self defense than you are to be killed in a car accident. I carry a 10auto. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. By the way. Studies based on law enforcement shootings that are available to us show that only one or two solid torso hits can be expected at best. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. This is real life experience not article information research. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. Practice, practice, practice. With the way things are going today I decided it was time to carry again. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. Gimme a break! Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. View our Terms of Service John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. Cpl. Damage: 55. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. A 50-60gr 9mm bullet that obtains 2000 fps. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea Sudden, immediate and even instant death. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 250 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. JavaScript is disabled. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. More damage with one shot. the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. Thanks for reading and commenting!! I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. They are a secondary source at best. Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations. I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. Desert Eagle Ammo Type: .45 ACP. If you want to test that theory in a real world environment. Whether fear or anger, adrenaline can make one shake. I think it is more the exception than the rule. When the. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. We have much better tools now. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. Really.. and air on the nose of the bullet?! Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. But why not? Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. What a joke! Died instantly. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. He eventually was taken off life support 4 days later, open casket funeral. Any weapon is only as good as its owner, making the person behind the trigger the single greatest factor in how much stopping power a gun ultimately yields. Ballistic gel is a joke and not a valid substitute for actual flesh and bone. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. I am older now, living in the city. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. 9mm will not drop a target unless you hit the CNS.a buddy of mine took a 9mm straight through the head through his eyeball from about 20 yards away. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? Look at the Walter Scott shooting. The .50 Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. Practice thats all it takes. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. Are there exceptions? Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! A .223 is just 55 grains. I Have hair and an angular face. Much of the difference is After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like.